2008-6-26 05:04
老农
【The New Voice】一位西藏東部藏人的文章
[font=SimSun][size=12pt]【原文連接】[/size][/font][size=11pt][url=http://thenewvoice.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/an-essay-by-a-tibetan-from-eastern-tibet/#comments][b]http://thenewvoice.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/an-essay-by-a-tibetan-from-eastern-tibet/#comments[/b][/url][/size][font=PMingLiU]
【翻譯】[/font]ltbriar
[color=red][b][font=SimSun]【聲明】[/font][/b][b][font=SimSun]本文翻譯僅限[/font][/b][b]Anti-CNN[/b][b][font=SimSun]使用，[/font][/b][b][font=SimSun]謝絕轉載。[/font][/b][/color]
[font=PMingLiU]【原文】[/font][b]An essay by a Tibetan from Eastern Tibet[/b]
[font=Arial]All you people had heard enough from the so-calledethnic Tibetans who had never set foot in Tibet. Now let’s hear fromsomeone who are really from Tibet.The following is an essay publishedin a forum in Seattle. I can’t find the original link so that Ireproduce the original article here. If the author sees this andobjects, please contact us.[/font]
[font=Arial][b]An essay by a XiZang people[/b][/font]
[font=Arial]by Namjagbarwa, From Eastern Tibet[/font]
[font=Arial]I’ll use the name of my hometown’s pride as my user ID here,—Mt. Namjarbarwa.[/font]
[font=Arial]My English is not good so pls pardon me if you see any typo and mistake.[/font]
[font=Arial]I am from Nyingchi Region, Eastern Tibet. 70% of mybeloved homeland are under Indian military occupation. All Thanks tothe British support in 1962. But that’s another story.[/font]
[font=Arial]During the past month, I’ve witnessed a lotprotests here in U.S.and been told about riots back at my homeland. Ithink it’s my duty to clear on some FACTS that are obviously andselectively omitted by the media and protesters.[/font]
[font=Arial]1. His Holyness the Dalai Lama DOES NOT representTibet.Our Tibetan Buddhism has 4 schools:Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu.HH the Dalai Lama is ONE of the TWO most respected living budda ofGelug (Yellow Hat Sect), another one is Panchen Lama. HH the Dalai Lamacan only represent farmers and town living Tibetans from North CentralTibet (Centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 20% of entireTibetan population at the most. Entire South Central Tibet (Centeredwith City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only, as well as we who arefrom Eastern Tibet only believe NyingMa Sect, the Red Hat.[/font]
[font=Arial]2. Example: If the President of Confederacy,Jefferson Davis, fled to Europe after the Civil War was lost. Can herepresent all Americans? I don’t think so. He IS qualified to representall the slave masters though.[/font]
[font=Arial]3. Since 1980, We Tibetans have not paid ONE centof Tax to the central government. We Tibetans have NOT paid ONE cent onfertilizer and seed. We have promotion access to housing,education,birth, employment and all kinds of other social benefits. Thename of this promotion policy is called the Affirmative Act in theUnited States.I don’t know what it’s called in Tibet and honestly Ididn’t really care. It’s been there since I was born. When I realizedthat policy only applies to minority groups in China,I am already 13. I got 10 points raise on my average score when Igraduated from elementary school. And I know my brother got 20 pointswhen he graduated from high school. There are 10 Million high schoolgraduates competing to get into college every year. Can you imagine howmany advantages this 20 point can make?? BTW, I have 3 brothers and 2sisters, and there goes so-called “Forced Birth Control among Tibetans”.[/font]
[font=Arial]4. Just like 95% of other Tibetans,my family wasfarmer-slaves before 1959. We’ve always been slaves till HH the DalaiLama and his slavery government escaped from Tibet, along with mostslave masters. Though the Chinese Army already stationed in Tibet in1950,the reform, the abandon of slavery system was not carried out bycentral government. One story is that in 1954,Chinese Army was hiringin my village to help them building concrete roads. After they foundout that their payments to the villagers are all robbed by slavemasters, they were angry and started paying merchandise and goodsdirectly,just to make sure the masters can’t take them away. That was 4years after People’s Liberation Army entered Tibet.[/font]
[font=Arial]5. I am kinda tired telling these stories now. Idon’t know why the world outside Tibet had so many misleadings andunderstanding to our homeland. I really appreciate that you said youwere speaking for Tibetans. But there are 3 million Tibetans living inTibet now and you are only listening to those around HH the DalaiLama??? Our living conditions are much better than those in exile andmuch much better than 50years ago. and none of these was the effort ofexile Tibetan government, ZERO.We earned it by our sweat drops andpromotion policies from central government.Not a living budda who wasrandomly picked by HH. And we want our life to be better and better.Talking about moral standards and religion freedom, we Red Hat Sect canpractice all traditional customs everyday. I don’t know what happenedto Yellow Hat and I don’t understand why they seem like the onlytrouled ones in Tibet and mostly I don’t see how can HH the Dalai Lamabecome the Representative of Tibet?![/font]
[font=Arial]Long live Tibet, Long live Peace, Long live China.[/font]
[img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/images/default/attachimg.gif[/img] [img]http://upload.anti-cnn.com/forum/attachments/cn/day_080608/20080608_748f1d2056ab7978f1c1NaQlpQu7N9Xd.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/images/attachicons/image.gif[/img] [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/attachment.php?aid=44303&k=2371f4062807633bc161e92f9397a12e&t=1214427755¬humb=yes][b]NV.jpg[/b][/url] (173.38 KB)
2008-6-8 06:02
[font=宋体]【[color=red]中文翻译[/color]】[/font]
[b][color=blue][font=宋体]一位[/font][/color][/b][b][color=blue][font=宋体]西藏[/font][/color][/b][b][color=blue][font=宋体]东部藏人的文章一位西藏东部藏人的文章[/font][/color][/b]
[color=blue][font=宋体]那些从未踏足西藏自称藏族人士的话[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]大家可能听多了。现在让我们听听一位真正来自西藏的人说些什么。以下是在西雅图一个论坛发表的文章。我没法找到原始连接[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU],[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]只能把原文转载[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]如果作者看到有异议[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]请与我们连络。[/font][/color]
[b][color=blue][font=宋体]一个西藏人的文章[/font][/color][/b][color=blue][font=宋体]来自西藏东部的[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=宋体]南迦巴瓦峰[/font][/color]
[font=PMingLiU]([/font][font=宋体]注[/font][font=PMingLiU]: [/font][font=宋体]又名那木卓巴尔山[/font][font=PMingLiU], [/font][font=宋体]藏语意为[/font][font=PMingLiU]'[/font][font=宋体]直刺蓝天的战矛[/font][font=PMingLiU]', [/font][font=宋体]主峰高[/font][font=PMingLiU]7782[/font][font=宋体]米[/font][font=PMingLiU],[/font][font=宋体]有冰山之父的美誉[/font][font=PMingLiU])[/font]
[color=blue][font=宋体]我用我家乡引以为豪的山峰[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]南迦巴瓦[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]作为我的代号。我的英文不太好[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU],[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]如有打错或错字[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]请原谅。我来自西藏东部林芝地区[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我热爱的故乡有[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU]70%[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]都被印度军事占据。那全是拜[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1962[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年英国人支持他们所致[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]但那又是另一段故事了。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=宋体]在过去数月[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我看到美国这里有许多抗议[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]被告知有关我家乡发生的暴乱事件。我想我有责任澄清一些被媒体及示威者明显及有选择性隐瞒的事实。[/font][/color][color=blue]
[font=Times New Roman]1. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]dl喇嘛[b][font=宋体]并不代表[/font][/b]西藏。我们藏传佛教有四个派别[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]: [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]格鲁[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]宁玛[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]萨迦[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]噶举。dl喇嘛是格鲁派[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]黄教[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][b][color=blue][font=宋体]两位[/font][/color][/b][color=blue][font=宋体]最重要的活佛中的[b][font=宋体]其中一位[/font][/b][/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]另一位是班禅喇嘛。dl喇嘛只能代表中北藏[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]以拉萨市为中心[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]藏区里居住的农民及居民[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]顶多占全部藏族人口的[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]20%[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]左右。中南藏区[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]以江孜市为中心[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]只信奉班禅喇嘛[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而我们东藏区的人[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]只信宁玛派[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]红教。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=Times New Roman]2. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]举例[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]: [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]如果南军总统杰克逊[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman].[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]戴维斯在南北战打输后逃往欧洲[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]他能代表所有美国人吗[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]? [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我不觉得他可以。他[b][font=宋体]只[/font][/b]配代表所有奴隶主而已。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=Times New Roman]3. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]从[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1980[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年开始[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们西藏人没有向中央政府上缴过一毛钱的税。我们西藏人没有付过一毛钱去买肥料和种子。我们获住屋[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]教育[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]生育[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]就业及所有各项的福利优惠。这种优惠政策的名字在美国叫积极补救[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman](AffirmativeAct), [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我不知道在西藏该叫什么而我也真不管这些。我出生时那些政策就存在。当我知道它们只适用于中国的小数民族时[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我已[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]13[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]岁了。小学毕业时我的平均分获多加了[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]10[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]分。我知道我哥高中毕业时加了[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]20[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]分。全国每年有上千万的高中生竞争上大学。你能想象这[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]20[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]分能产生多大的效益[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]? [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]还有[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我有三个兄弟[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]两姐妹[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]那什么「西藏人被逼限制生育」就该住咀了吧。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=PMingLiU]4. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]跟其它[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]95%[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]的西藏人一样[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我家在[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1959[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年前是农奴。直到dl喇嘛跟他那奴隶政府及奴隶主们逃离西藏前[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们都是奴隶。虽然中国军队[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1950[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年就驻守西藏[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]中央政府没有推行改革或是废除奴隶制度。有一个说法是[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1954[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年中国军队在我们村子招募劳工去帮他们修水泥路。他们发现他们给村民的工资全都被奴隶主抢走后[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]他们很气的改用货物来支付村民[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]让奴隶主没法抢。四年后[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]人民解放军就开进拉萨了。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=Times New Roman]5. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我现在已懒得再讲这些事情了。我不懂西藏以外的世界为什么对我们故乡有那么多误导理解。我真很感谢你说你是替西藏人说话。但现在西藏生活的西藏人有[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]300[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]万之多[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而你只听在dl喇嘛身边那些人在讲[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]???[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们生活条件比那些流亡的人好多[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]跟[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]50[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年前比[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]那更是好太多太多了[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而这些却完全不是流亡政府出的力[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]那是个[b][font=宋体]零[/font][/b][/font][/color][font=宋体][size=10pt]。[/size][/font][color=blue][font=宋体]我们是以汗水及中央政府的优惠政策自己挣回来的。不是他随便指命的一个活佛[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]所致[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]。而我们希望我们的生活愈来愈好。说到道德标准及宗教自由[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们红教天天都可以奉行一切传统仪式。我不知道黄教怎么啦[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而我也不懂为什么他们好像是西藏那里唯一有问题的人[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我最弄不懂是dl喇嘛他如何能成西藏的代表人[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]?
[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]西藏万岁[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]和平[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]万岁[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]中国万岁[/font][/color][color=blue][size=3][font=PMingLiU][color=darkolivegreen]
[/color][/font][/size][/color]
[font=SimSun][size=12pt]【原文連接】[/size][/font][size=11pt][url=http://thenewvoice.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/an-essay-by-a-tibetan-from-eastern-tibet/#comments][b]http://thenewvoice.wordpress.com/2008/04/17/an-essay-by-a-tibetan-from-eastern-tibet/#comments[/b][/url][/size][font=PMingLiU]
【翻譯】[/font]ltbriar
[color=red][b][font=SimSun]【聲明】[/font][/b][b][font=SimSun]本文翻譯僅限[/font][/b][b]Anti-CNN[/b][b][font=SimSun]使用，[/font][/b][b][font=SimSun]謝絕轉載。[/font][/b][/color]
[font=PMingLiU]【原文】[/font][b]An essay by a Tibetan from Eastern Tibet[/b]
[font=Arial]All you people had heard enough from the so-calledethnic Tibetans who had never set foot in Tibet. Now let’s hear fromsomeone who are really from Tibet.The following is an essay publishedin a forum in Seattle. I can’t find the original link so that Ireproduce the original article here. If the author sees this andobjects, please contact us.[/font]
[font=Arial][b]An essay by a XiZang people[/b][/font]
[font=Arial]by Namjagbarwa, From Eastern Tibet[/font]
[font=Arial]I’ll use the name of my hometown’s pride as my user ID here,—Mt. Namjarbarwa.[/font]
[font=Arial]My English is not good so pls pardon me if you see any typo and mistake.[/font]
[font=Arial]I am from Nyingchi Region, Eastern Tibet. 70% of mybeloved homeland are under Indian military occupation. All Thanks tothe British support in 1962. But that’s another story.[/font]
[font=Arial]During the past month, I’ve witnessed a lotprotests here in U.S.and been told about riots back at my homeland. Ithink it’s my duty to clear on some FACTS that are obviously andselectively omitted by the media and protesters.[/font]
[font=Arial]1. His Holyness the Dalai Lama DOES NOT representTibet.Our Tibetan Buddhism has 4 schools:Gelug, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu.HH the Dalai Lama is ONE of the TWO most respected living budda ofGelug (Yellow Hat Sect), another one is Panchen Lama. HH the Dalai Lamacan only represent farmers and town living Tibetans from North CentralTibet (Centered with City of Lhasa), which is about 20% of entireTibetan population at the most. Entire South Central Tibet (Centeredwith City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only, as well as we who arefrom Eastern Tibet only believe NyingMa Sect, the Red Hat.[/font]
[font=Arial]2. Example: If the President of Confederacy,Jefferson Davis, fled to Europe after the Civil War was lost. Can herepresent all Americans? I don’t think so. He IS qualified to representall the slave masters though.[/font]
[font=Arial]3. Since 1980, We Tibetans have not paid ONE centof Tax to the central government. We Tibetans have NOT paid ONE cent onfertilizer and seed. We have promotion access to housing,education,birth, employment and all kinds of other social benefits. Thename of this promotion policy is called the Affirmative Act in theUnited States.I don’t know what it’s called in Tibet and honestly Ididn’t really care. It’s been there since I was born. When I realizedthat policy only applies to minority groups in China,I am already 13. I got 10 points raise on my average score when Igraduated from elementary school. And I know my brother got 20 pointswhen he graduated from high school. There are 10 Million high schoolgraduates competing to get into college every year. Can you imagine howmany advantages this 20 point can make?? BTW, I have 3 brothers and 2sisters, and there goes so-called “Forced Birth Control among Tibetans”.[/font]
[font=Arial]4. Just like 95% of other Tibetans,my family wasfarmer-slaves before 1959. We’ve always been slaves till HH the DalaiLama and his slavery government escaped from Tibet, along with mostslave masters. Though the Chinese Army already stationed in Tibet in1950,the reform, the abandon of slavery system was not carried out bycentral government. One story is that in 1954,Chinese Army was hiringin my village to help them building concrete roads. After they foundout that their payments to the villagers are all robbed by slavemasters, they were angry and started paying merchandise and goodsdirectly,just to make sure the masters can’t take them away. That was 4years after People’s Liberation Army entered Tibet.[/font]
[font=Arial]5. I am kinda tired telling these stories now. Idon’t know why the world outside Tibet had so many misleadings andunderstanding to our homeland. I really appreciate that you said youwere speaking for Tibetans. But there are 3 million Tibetans living inTibet now and you are only listening to those around HH the DalaiLama??? Our living conditions are much better than those in exile andmuch much better than 50years ago. and none of these was the effort ofexile Tibetan government, ZERO.We earned it by our sweat drops andpromotion policies from central government.Not a living budda who wasrandomly picked by HH. And we want our life to be better and better.Talking about moral standards and religion freedom, we Red Hat Sect canpractice all traditional customs everyday. I don’t know what happenedto Yellow Hat and I don’t understand why they seem like the onlytrouled ones in Tibet and mostly I don’t see how can HH the Dalai Lamabecome the Representative of Tibet?![/font]
[font=Arial]Long live Tibet, Long live Peace, Long live China.[/font]
[img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/images/default/attachimg.gif[/img] [img]http://upload.anti-cnn.com/forum/attachments/cn/day_080608/20080608_748f1d2056ab7978f1c1NaQlpQu7N9Xd.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/images/attachicons/image.gif[/img] [url=http://www.anti-cnn.com/forum/cn/attachment.php?aid=44303&k=2371f4062807633bc161e92f9397a12e&t=1214427755¬humb=yes][b]NV.jpg[/b][/url] (173.38 KB)
2008-6-8 06:02
[font=宋体]【[color=red]中文翻译[/color]】[/font]
[b][color=blue][font=宋体]一位[/font][/color][/b][b][color=blue][font=宋体]西藏[/font][/color][/b][b][color=blue][font=宋体]东部藏人的文章一位西藏东部藏人的文章[/font][/color][/b]
[color=blue][font=宋体]那些从未踏足西藏自称藏族人士的话[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]大家可能听多了。现在让我们听听一位真正来自西藏的人说些什么。以下是在西雅图一个论坛发表的文章。我没法找到原始连接[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU],[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]只能把原文转载[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]如果作者看到有异议[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]请与我们连络。[/font][/color]
[b][color=blue][font=宋体]一个西藏人的文章[/font][/color][/b][color=blue][font=宋体]来自西藏东部的[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=宋体]南迦巴瓦峰[/font][/color]
[font=PMingLiU]([/font][font=宋体]注[/font][font=PMingLiU]: [/font][font=宋体]又名那木卓巴尔山[/font][font=PMingLiU], [/font][font=宋体]藏语意为[/font][font=PMingLiU]'[/font][font=宋体]直刺蓝天的战矛[/font][font=PMingLiU]', [/font][font=宋体]主峰高[/font][font=PMingLiU]7782[/font][font=宋体]米[/font][font=PMingLiU],[/font][font=宋体]有冰山之父的美誉[/font][font=PMingLiU])[/font]
[color=blue][font=宋体]我用我家乡引以为豪的山峰[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]南迦巴瓦[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]作为我的代号。我的英文不太好[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU],[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]如有打错或错字[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]请原谅。我来自西藏东部林芝地区[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我热爱的故乡有[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU]70%[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]都被印度军事占据。那全是拜[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1962[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年英国人支持他们所致[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]但那又是另一段故事了。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=宋体]在过去数月[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我看到美国这里有许多抗议[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]被告知有关我家乡发生的暴乱事件。我想我有责任澄清一些被媒体及示威者明显及有选择性隐瞒的事实。[/font][/color][color=blue]
[font=Times New Roman]1. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]dl喇嘛[b][font=宋体]并不代表[/font][/b]西藏。我们藏传佛教有四个派别[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]: [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]格鲁[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]宁玛[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]萨迦[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]噶举。dl喇嘛是格鲁派[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]黄教[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][b][color=blue][font=宋体]两位[/font][/color][/b][color=blue][font=宋体]最重要的活佛中的[b][font=宋体]其中一位[/font][/b][/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]另一位是班禅喇嘛。dl喇嘛只能代表中北藏[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]以拉萨市为中心[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]藏区里居住的农民及居民[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]顶多占全部藏族人口的[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]20%[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]左右。中南藏区[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]以江孜市为中心[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]只信奉班禅喇嘛[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而我们东藏区的人[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]只信宁玛派[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]红教。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=Times New Roman]2. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]举例[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]: [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]如果南军总统杰克逊[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman].[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]戴维斯在南北战打输后逃往欧洲[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]他能代表所有美国人吗[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]? [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我不觉得他可以。他[b][font=宋体]只[/font][/b]配代表所有奴隶主而已。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=Times New Roman]3. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]从[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1980[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年开始[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们西藏人没有向中央政府上缴过一毛钱的税。我们西藏人没有付过一毛钱去买肥料和种子。我们获住屋[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]教育[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]生育[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]就业及所有各项的福利优惠。这种优惠政策的名字在美国叫积极补救[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman](AffirmativeAct), [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我不知道在西藏该叫什么而我也真不管这些。我出生时那些政策就存在。当我知道它们只适用于中国的小数民族时[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我已[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]13[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]岁了。小学毕业时我的平均分获多加了[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]10[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]分。我知道我哥高中毕业时加了[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]20[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]分。全国每年有上千万的高中生竞争上大学。你能想象这[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]20[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]分能产生多大的效益[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]? [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]还有[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我有三个兄弟[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]两姐妹[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]那什么「西藏人被逼限制生育」就该住咀了吧。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=PMingLiU]4. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]跟其它[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]95%[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]的西藏人一样[/font][/color][color=blue][font=PMingLiU], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我家在[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1959[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年前是农奴。直到dl喇嘛跟他那奴隶政府及奴隶主们逃离西藏前[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们都是奴隶。虽然中国军队[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1950[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年就驻守西藏[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]中央政府没有推行改革或是废除奴隶制度。有一个说法是[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]1954[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年中国军队在我们村子招募劳工去帮他们修水泥路。他们发现他们给村民的工资全都被奴隶主抢走后[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]他们很气的改用货物来支付村民[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]让奴隶主没法抢。四年后[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]人民解放军就开进拉萨了。[/font][/color]
[color=blue][font=Times New Roman]5. [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我现在已懒得再讲这些事情了。我不懂西藏以外的世界为什么对我们故乡有那么多误导理解。我真很感谢你说你是替西藏人说话。但现在西藏生活的西藏人有[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]300[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]万之多[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而你只听在dl喇嘛身边那些人在讲[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]???[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们生活条件比那些流亡的人好多[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]跟[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]50[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]年前比[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]那更是好太多太多了[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而这些却完全不是流亡政府出的力[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]那是个[b][font=宋体]零[/font][/b][/font][/color][font=宋体][size=10pt]。[/size][/font][color=blue][font=宋体]我们是以汗水及中央政府的优惠政策自己挣回来的。不是他随便指命的一个活佛[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]([/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]所致[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman])[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]。而我们希望我们的生活愈来愈好。说到道德标准及宗教自由[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我们红教天天都可以奉行一切传统仪式。我不知道黄教怎么啦[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]而我也不懂为什么他们好像是西藏那里唯一有问题的人[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]我最弄不懂是dl喇嘛他如何能成西藏的代表人[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman]?
[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]西藏万岁[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]和平[/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]万岁[/font][/color][color=blue][font=Times New Roman], [/font][/color][color=blue][font=宋体]中国万岁[/font][/color][color=blue][size=3][font=PMingLiU][color=darkolivegreen]
[/color][/font][/size][/color]
2008-6-26 05:09
老农
• Palang April 21, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Yes this is true. My family is Bonpo and we don’t follow Dalai Lama. When we go to Lhasa, people hate us because we are Bonpo. They say we are animals and uncivilized and they tell us to go back to Kham.
【中文翻譯】
Palang貼於: 2008年4月21日, 晚上6:19
对, 这是事实。我家是苯教的, 我们不追随dl喇嘛。我们去拉萨时, 人们因我们是苯教而仇视我们。他们说我们是畜牲, 不文明而他们叫我们回去康区。
• Anonymous
April 22, 2008 at 9:25 pm
“…Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only…”
the one that the CCP kidnapped, not the puppet Panchen Zuma that the CCP installed
【中文翻譯】
Anonymous貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上9:25
“…中南藏区(以江孜市为中心)只信奉班禅喇嘛…”
是被中共绑架那个, 不是中共设立的傀儡假班禅…”
• terminator April 22, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Regardless which Panchen, we know that the Tibetans in Kham do not warship Dalai Lama. And even worse, the Tibetans in TAR hate them. So I wonder how Dalai Lama can claim that all Tibetans want to follow him and seek independence (or in another word, autonomous)?
【中文翻譯】
terminator 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上9:53
不管那位班禅, 我们知道康区藏人不信dl喇嘛。更甚是, 西藏自治区的藏人讨厌他们。所以我奇怪dl喇嘛如何能说所有藏人都愿意跟随他, 及要求独立 (或换另一辞, 自治)?
• thefooledmass April 22, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Talking about Panchan, let’s get something straight: all previous Panchan (and Dalai) Lamas were sought by local monks and approved by central government in Beijing. And in fact, the reincarnation scheme of Dalai and Panchan was initially designed by Beijing government in Qing dynasty. There was no precedence Dalai announcing a Panchan: they don’t even belong to the same sect, for budda’s sake! It’s just like US AirForce commander appointing the next commander of US army. Leave this to Bush please.
And there used to be fights between these two groups of leaders, particularily between the current(14th) Dalai and the previous(10th) Panchan. So what makes the 14th Dalai an authority to announce a Panchan? (Oh yeah, to make it a longer stretch, Dalai was living in India, how can he go pick a candidate in China?)
Following the traditional rule, the central government picked a Panchan. Hands down.
Don’t believe it? Learn some history for yourself.
【中文翻譯】
thefooledmass 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上10:43
谈到班禅, 让我们弄清一件事情: 之前所有的班禅(及dl)喇嘛都是由当地僧人找到, 然后由北京中央政府确认的。事实上, dl及班禅转世制度是由清朝北京政府所设计的。(译注: 此处有误, 应该是金瓶掣签是由清乾隆所定, 但转世之说, 在此之前已有。) 从前没有先例由dl来宣布班禅: 佛爷, 他们都不属于一个派系。(译注: 又错了, dl跟班禅都是黄教格鲁派的, 只是各有转世系统, 但两人的宗教政治地位是平等的) 就像由美国空军总司令来委任下任的美军陆军总司令。这该留给小布做的, 拜托。
还有从前这两组领袖, 特别是现在(14世)dl跟前任(10世)班禅素来不和。那怎会让14世dl有权指定一个班禅呢? (对啦, 再扯长一点, dl人在印度, 他怎去中国去挑一个候选人?)
根据传统规则, 中央政府选定班禅, 其他的手都给缩开。不信? 自己看历史教教自己去。
• suqing17 April 22, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Well, I agree with most of the arguments thefooledmass made. But there is a technical mistake. Panchan and Dalai do belong to the same sect: the Gelug (the yellow hat sect). Neither can represent all Tibetans, because there are multiple religious sects in Tibet.
【中文翻譯】
suqing17 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上11:35
thefooledmass提出的大部份论点我都同意, 但有一个技术错误, 班禅跟dl是同一派: (黄教)格鲁派的。谁都不能代表所有西藏人, 因为西藏有多个不同的宗教教派。
• Anonymous April 23, 2008 at 12:50 am
thefooledmass- nice try you got some things right but many important things wrong
“There was no precedence Dalai announcing a Panchan: they don’t even belong to the same sect, for budda’s sake!”
Could you provide support for these statements?
I believe that they are both false.
Here is a quotation from a noted scholar on Tibetan Buddhism and history on the history of the selection of the PL. It was written in 1995 the year the DL chose Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th PL.
“During his lifetime, Gendün Drüp was given the title ‘Panchen’ (’Great Scholar’ by his contemporary Bodong Choklay Namgyel. The successive abbots of Tashi Lhünpo inherited this title. In the seventeenth century, the fifth Dalai Lama gave Tashi Lhünpo to his teacher, Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen (1567-1662), the fifteenth abbot of the monastery. As head of Tashi Lhünpo, he was known as ‘Panchen,’ but he received the distinctive title ‘Panchen Lama’ from the fifth Dalai Lama, who announced that Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen would reincarnate as a recognisable child. The title ‘Panchen Lama’ was retroactively conferred on his two previous incarnations, although they did not belong to Tashi Lhünpo monastery. Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen’s successor was later recognised as the fourth Panchen Lama. From that time until the present day, the Dalai Lamas have traditionally recognised the Panchen Lamas, and the Panchen Lamas in turn figure prominently in the search for the Dalai Lamas. ”
-so clearly the article states that the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama have been responsible for choosing each other
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
“all previous Panchan(and Dalai) Lamas were sought by local monks and approved by central government in Beijing”
Hmm… I’ll quote the same source that discusses this issue.
“In addition to these moves, China’s leaders have launched a propaganda campaign which claims that Chinese government officials have overseen the selection of tülkus since the Qing dynasty, a claim that is historically baseless. Several recent articles in government newspapers have asserted that the Qing emperor Qianlong in 1793 sent a golden urn to Tibet with instructions that the ninth Dalai Lama should be chosen by lots drawn from the urn. Tibetan historical records indicate that the emperor’s instructions were ignored, and the Dalai Lama was chosen according to traditional methods of selection, but in a face-saving move that was to have long-term implications, the emperor’s representatives (amban) convinced Tibetan authorities to allow them to proclaim in China that the emperor’s directives had been followed.
While Chinese officials have often visited Tibet for enthronement ceremonies and passed on the good wishes of emperors or other heads of state, there is no historical evidence that a Chinese official has ever had any direct role in the selection process, nor have any been more than observers. The present situation is roughly comparable to the Australian government sending a representative to the Vatican for the investiture of a Pope and later claiming to have sole authority to choose his successor. ”
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
anyways since when does an atheist government declare who the reincarnation of a buddhist monk is :\, it’s absurd
ps I know that the atheist communist government have now claimed themselves responsible for discovering all of the reincarnations of reincarnated lamas, as ridiculous as that sounds
【中文翻譯】
Anonymous 貼於: 2008年4月23日, \凌晨12:50
thefooledmass- 很好, 你有些地方对, 但许多重要地方错了。
“从前没有先例由dl来宣布班禅: 佛爷, 他们都不属于一个派系”
你能为这些提供支持佐证吗? 我相信两项都是错的。
这是引自有名藏传佛教及历史学者就班禅喇嘛选定的历史研究, 是在1995年dl喇嘛确认更登确吉尼玛为11世班禅时写的。
“在他的时代, 根敦朱巴就被赠“班禅”之号(他同时代的布敦却雷南杰“大学者”。扎什伦布寺的继后主持承传了这个称号。在17世纪时, dl五世把扎什伦布寺交给了他的老师,罗桑却吉坚赞(Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen (1567-1662)), 该寺的第15任主持。作为扎什伦布寺之首, 他也称为“班禅”, 但他自dl五世那里得到特殊的称号“班禅喇嘛”, 而且宣布罗桑却吉坚赞会转世作灵童。“班禅喇嘛”就追封及他之前两次的转世, 虽然他们并不属于扎什伦布寺。罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者后来被承认为班禅四世。从那时起到现在, dl喇嘛按传统承认班禅喇嘛, 班禅也一直在寻找dl喇嘛的占重要地位。”
-所以明显在文章中说明dl喇嘛跟班禅喇嘛一直负责选定另一位。
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
“之前所有的班禅(及dl)喇嘛都是由当地僧人找到”
嗯嗯, 我引用讨论这问题的同一资源:
“除了这些行动, 中国领导还发起文宣声称中国政府官方从清代开始一直监督图嘉的选定, 那说法是没历史根据的。最近官方报纸声称清朝皇帝乾隆在1793年给西藏发了一个金瓶, 要求按照指示从瓶内掣签选出dl九世。西藏的历史纪录显示皇帝的诏告没有受重视, dl还是按照传统方法选定, 但作为有长远意义的一个保存颜面的做法, 皇帝的办事大臣(amban, 译注, 满文baita be icihiyara amban 清政府于回疆的喀什噶尔、叶尔羌、和田及藏区的拉萨、西宁和外蒙古的库伦等地设办事大臣，掌管该地军政, [url]http://bbs.cqzg.cn/thread-516320-1-1.html[/url])说服西藏官员让他们在中国宣布皇帝谕示已按照执行。
中国官员是经常去西藏参加坐床仪式, 转达皇帝或其他领导的祝贺, 但没有历史证明中国官员有任何直接决定选择过程, 或在旁观之外有更多的参与。
现在的情况可以勉强跟澳洲政府派代表去梵谛冈参加教宗就职礼, 其后却说有专利去选他的继任人。”
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
不管怎样, 一个无神论的政府宣布一个佛教僧人的转世, 那是很可笑的
再者: 我知道无神论政府现在宣称他们负责寻找所有转世喇嘛的转世灵童, 听来都很荒谬。
• Palang April 23, 2008 at 10:27 am
Yes, they both belong to gelugpa sect. Dalai lama is higher than Panchen but my father told me they have also been rivalry because they always fight for power
【中文翻譯】
Palang貼於: 2008年4月23日, 早晚上10:27
对, 他们都属于格鲁派。dl喇嘛比班禅高一点, 但我爸告诉我他们也一直斗争因为他们永远争夺权利。
• suqing17 April 23, 2008 at 10:57 am
Actually, Panchan and Dalai have equal status within the sect. The higher power Dalai has over Panchan is secular.
【中文翻譯】
suqing17 貼於: 2008年4月23日, 早上10:57
事实上, 班禅与dl在派内是平等地位的。dl权力比班禅大, 那是俗人看法。
Yes this is true. My family is Bonpo and we don’t follow Dalai Lama. When we go to Lhasa, people hate us because we are Bonpo. They say we are animals and uncivilized and they tell us to go back to Kham.
【中文翻譯】
Palang貼於: 2008年4月21日, 晚上6:19
对, 这是事实。我家是苯教的, 我们不追随dl喇嘛。我们去拉萨时, 人们因我们是苯教而仇视我们。他们说我们是畜牲, 不文明而他们叫我们回去康区。
• Anonymous
April 22, 2008 at 9:25 pm
“…Entire South Central Tibet(Centered with City of Xigaze) worship Panchen Lama only…”
the one that the CCP kidnapped, not the puppet Panchen Zuma that the CCP installed
【中文翻譯】
Anonymous貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上9:25
“…中南藏区(以江孜市为中心)只信奉班禅喇嘛…”
是被中共绑架那个, 不是中共设立的傀儡假班禅…”
• terminator April 22, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Regardless which Panchen, we know that the Tibetans in Kham do not warship Dalai Lama. And even worse, the Tibetans in TAR hate them. So I wonder how Dalai Lama can claim that all Tibetans want to follow him and seek independence (or in another word, autonomous)?
【中文翻譯】
terminator 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上9:53
不管那位班禅, 我们知道康区藏人不信dl喇嘛。更甚是, 西藏自治区的藏人讨厌他们。所以我奇怪dl喇嘛如何能说所有藏人都愿意跟随他, 及要求独立 (或换另一辞, 自治)?
• thefooledmass April 22, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Talking about Panchan, let’s get something straight: all previous Panchan (and Dalai) Lamas were sought by local monks and approved by central government in Beijing. And in fact, the reincarnation scheme of Dalai and Panchan was initially designed by Beijing government in Qing dynasty. There was no precedence Dalai announcing a Panchan: they don’t even belong to the same sect, for budda’s sake! It’s just like US AirForce commander appointing the next commander of US army. Leave this to Bush please.
And there used to be fights between these two groups of leaders, particularily between the current(14th) Dalai and the previous(10th) Panchan. So what makes the 14th Dalai an authority to announce a Panchan? (Oh yeah, to make it a longer stretch, Dalai was living in India, how can he go pick a candidate in China?)
Following the traditional rule, the central government picked a Panchan. Hands down.
Don’t believe it? Learn some history for yourself.
【中文翻譯】
thefooledmass 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上10:43
谈到班禅, 让我们弄清一件事情: 之前所有的班禅(及dl)喇嘛都是由当地僧人找到, 然后由北京中央政府确认的。事实上, dl及班禅转世制度是由清朝北京政府所设计的。(译注: 此处有误, 应该是金瓶掣签是由清乾隆所定, 但转世之说, 在此之前已有。) 从前没有先例由dl来宣布班禅: 佛爷, 他们都不属于一个派系。(译注: 又错了, dl跟班禅都是黄教格鲁派的, 只是各有转世系统, 但两人的宗教政治地位是平等的) 就像由美国空军总司令来委任下任的美军陆军总司令。这该留给小布做的, 拜托。
还有从前这两组领袖, 特别是现在(14世)dl跟前任(10世)班禅素来不和。那怎会让14世dl有权指定一个班禅呢? (对啦, 再扯长一点, dl人在印度, 他怎去中国去挑一个候选人?)
根据传统规则, 中央政府选定班禅, 其他的手都给缩开。不信? 自己看历史教教自己去。
• suqing17 April 22, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Well, I agree with most of the arguments thefooledmass made. But there is a technical mistake. Panchan and Dalai do belong to the same sect: the Gelug (the yellow hat sect). Neither can represent all Tibetans, because there are multiple religious sects in Tibet.
【中文翻譯】
suqing17 貼於: 2008年4月22日, 晚上11:35
thefooledmass提出的大部份论点我都同意, 但有一个技术错误, 班禅跟dl是同一派: (黄教)格鲁派的。谁都不能代表所有西藏人, 因为西藏有多个不同的宗教教派。
• Anonymous April 23, 2008 at 12:50 am
thefooledmass- nice try you got some things right but many important things wrong
“There was no precedence Dalai announcing a Panchan: they don’t even belong to the same sect, for budda’s sake!”
Could you provide support for these statements?
I believe that they are both false.
Here is a quotation from a noted scholar on Tibetan Buddhism and history on the history of the selection of the PL. It was written in 1995 the year the DL chose Gedhun Choekyi Nyima as the 11th PL.
“During his lifetime, Gendün Drüp was given the title ‘Panchen’ (’Great Scholar’ by his contemporary Bodong Choklay Namgyel. The successive abbots of Tashi Lhünpo inherited this title. In the seventeenth century, the fifth Dalai Lama gave Tashi Lhünpo to his teacher, Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen (1567-1662), the fifteenth abbot of the monastery. As head of Tashi Lhünpo, he was known as ‘Panchen,’ but he received the distinctive title ‘Panchen Lama’ from the fifth Dalai Lama, who announced that Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen would reincarnate as a recognisable child. The title ‘Panchen Lama’ was retroactively conferred on his two previous incarnations, although they did not belong to Tashi Lhünpo monastery. Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen’s successor was later recognised as the fourth Panchen Lama. From that time until the present day, the Dalai Lamas have traditionally recognised the Panchen Lamas, and the Panchen Lamas in turn figure prominently in the search for the Dalai Lamas. ”
-so clearly the article states that the Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama have been responsible for choosing each other
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
“all previous Panchan(and Dalai) Lamas were sought by local monks and approved by central government in Beijing”
Hmm… I’ll quote the same source that discusses this issue.
“In addition to these moves, China’s leaders have launched a propaganda campaign which claims that Chinese government officials have overseen the selection of tülkus since the Qing dynasty, a claim that is historically baseless. Several recent articles in government newspapers have asserted that the Qing emperor Qianlong in 1793 sent a golden urn to Tibet with instructions that the ninth Dalai Lama should be chosen by lots drawn from the urn. Tibetan historical records indicate that the emperor’s instructions were ignored, and the Dalai Lama was chosen according to traditional methods of selection, but in a face-saving move that was to have long-term implications, the emperor’s representatives (amban) convinced Tibetan authorities to allow them to proclaim in China that the emperor’s directives had been followed.
While Chinese officials have often visited Tibet for enthronement ceremonies and passed on the good wishes of emperors or other heads of state, there is no historical evidence that a Chinese official has ever had any direct role in the selection process, nor have any been more than observers. The present situation is roughly comparable to the Australian government sending a representative to the Vatican for the investiture of a Pope and later claiming to have sole authority to choose his successor. ”
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
anyways since when does an atheist government declare who the reincarnation of a buddhist monk is :\, it’s absurd
ps I know that the atheist communist government have now claimed themselves responsible for discovering all of the reincarnations of reincarnated lamas, as ridiculous as that sounds
【中文翻譯】
Anonymous 貼於: 2008年4月23日, \凌晨12:50
thefooledmass- 很好, 你有些地方对, 但许多重要地方错了。
“从前没有先例由dl来宣布班禅: 佛爷, 他们都不属于一个派系”
你能为这些提供支持佐证吗? 我相信两项都是错的。
这是引自有名藏传佛教及历史学者就班禅喇嘛选定的历史研究, 是在1995年dl喇嘛确认更登确吉尼玛为11世班禅时写的。
“在他的时代, 根敦朱巴就被赠“班禅”之号(他同时代的布敦却雷南杰“大学者”。扎什伦布寺的继后主持承传了这个称号。在17世纪时, dl五世把扎什伦布寺交给了他的老师,罗桑却吉坚赞(Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen (1567-1662)), 该寺的第15任主持。作为扎什伦布寺之首, 他也称为“班禅”, 但他自dl五世那里得到特殊的称号“班禅喇嘛”, 而且宣布罗桑却吉坚赞会转世作灵童。“班禅喇嘛”就追封及他之前两次的转世, 虽然他们并不属于扎什伦布寺。罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者后来被承认为班禅四世。从那时起到现在, dl喇嘛按传统承认班禅喇嘛, 班禅也一直在寻找dl喇嘛的占重要地位。”
-所以明显在文章中说明dl喇嘛跟班禅喇嘛一直负责选定另一位。
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
“之前所有的班禅(及dl)喇嘛都是由当地僧人找到”
嗯嗯, 我引用讨论这问题的同一资源:
“除了这些行动, 中国领导还发起文宣声称中国政府官方从清代开始一直监督图嘉的选定, 那说法是没历史根据的。最近官方报纸声称清朝皇帝乾隆在1793年给西藏发了一个金瓶, 要求按照指示从瓶内掣签选出dl九世。西藏的历史纪录显示皇帝的诏告没有受重视, dl还是按照传统方法选定, 但作为有长远意义的一个保存颜面的做法, 皇帝的办事大臣(amban, 译注, 满文baita be icihiyara amban 清政府于回疆的喀什噶尔、叶尔羌、和田及藏区的拉萨、西宁和外蒙古的库伦等地设办事大臣，掌管该地军政, [url]http://bbs.cqzg.cn/thread-516320-1-1.html[/url])说服西藏官员让他们在中国宣布皇帝谕示已按照执行。
中国官员是经常去西藏参加坐床仪式, 转达皇帝或其他领导的祝贺, 但没有历史证明中国官员有任何直接决定选择过程, 或在旁观之外有更多的参与。
现在的情况可以勉强跟澳洲政府派代表去梵谛冈参加教宗就职礼, 其后却说有专利去选他的继任人。”
[url]http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/APM/TXT/powers-j-01-96.html[/url]
不管怎样, 一个无神论的政府宣布一个佛教僧人的转世, 那是很可笑的
再者: 我知道无神论政府现在宣称他们负责寻找所有转世喇嘛的转世灵童, 听来都很荒谬。
• Palang April 23, 2008 at 10:27 am
Yes, they both belong to gelugpa sect. Dalai lama is higher than Panchen but my father told me they have also been rivalry because they always fight for power
【中文翻譯】
Palang貼於: 2008年4月23日, 早晚上10:27
对, 他们都属于格鲁派。dl喇嘛比班禅高一点, 但我爸告诉我他们也一直斗争因为他们永远争夺权利。
• suqing17 April 23, 2008 at 10:57 am
Actually, Panchan and Dalai have equal status within the sect. The higher power Dalai has over Panchan is secular.
【中文翻譯】
suqing17 貼於: 2008年4月23日, 早上10:57
事实上, 班禅与dl在派内是平等地位的。dl权力比班禅大, 那是俗人看法。
2008-6-26 05:11
老农
生之离殇
我也想说话,虽然我代表不了藏族人,但我奶奶是100%的藏族,我身体里有1/4的藏族血统.
我奶奶(1914年生)自5岁时被奴隶主卖到云南,到死都联系不上她的父母和兄弟,自我爸读完书后陪奶奶去藏区寻了20年都没找不到.
DL整天作秀一样全世界宣传他过去天堂一样的藏区,我看着就来气!本来气归气,我家跟DL没有直接的关系,是他们那个奴隶主阶层的债!但一看到DL不停冒头打尖(毕竟他是奴隶主的指挥),我一想起奶奶去世时还要我爸有时间一定再去找找看,现在我一看到DL还想会中国就忍不住想打他,等着吧,有机会实现了我肯定去我奶奶坟前报告!
我也想说话,虽然我代表不了藏族人,但我奶奶是100%的藏族,我身体里有1/4的藏族血统.
我奶奶(1914年生)自5岁时被奴隶主卖到云南,到死都联系不上她的父母和兄弟,自我爸读完书后陪奶奶去藏区寻了20年都没找不到.
DL整天作秀一样全世界宣传他过去天堂一样的藏区,我看着就来气!本来气归气,我家跟DL没有直接的关系,是他们那个奴隶主阶层的债!但一看到DL不停冒头打尖(毕竟他是奴隶主的指挥),我一想起奶奶去世时还要我爸有时间一定再去找找看,现在我一看到DL还想会中国就忍不住想打他,等着吧,有机会实现了我肯定去我奶奶坟前报告!
2008-6-26 05:18
老农
ltbriar
Well, Anonymous, your noted scholar should be John Power, who was thenSenior Lecturer in the Asian History Centre, the Australian NationalUniversity. I don't understand why you didn't quote his name?
If he is really a noted scholar, then he must work harder to live upwith his name. The first quote is full of misrepresentations andmistakes, starting from the 1st line.
1. [color=Red]Bodong Choklay Namgyel[/color], if we are referring to the same the founder of the Jonang-pa sect, [color=Red]Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal[/color] (pronounced [color=Red]Choklay Namgyel[/color],1306～1386) (Ref. Tucci (1949), pp.659-661, p.704, fn.848及TableXVI-Genealogy of Zhva Lu，Ruegg, pp.12-13) or your Bodong ChoklayNamgyei).
Gendün Drüp, or the 1st Dalai birth and death years are1391-1474. Please verify yourself, how can your contemporary ChoklayNamgyel addressed Gendün Drüp as "Great Scholar", when the boy wasonly born 5 years after he died?? Fascinating, isn't it? And who isthis Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal or your Bodong Choklay Namgyei? He was agreat scholar indeed, and actually teacher of 1st Dalai 's master, thelegendary Tsongkhapa (1357-1419).
Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal or your Bodong Choklay Namgyei, (1306～1386)
Tsongkhapa (1357-1419).
Gendün Drüp (1391-1474), make sense??
2. The Title "Panchen" was not conferred by Dalai 5th, but Gushri Khan(1582-1654) of Khoshut. In 1634, Dalai 5th and Panchen 4th(masterminded by Panchen 4th aged 64, as Dalai 5th was 17) werethreatened by other Tibetan sects and linked with Gushri Khan tosuppress their rivals. But Gushri Khan then set foot in Tibet. Laterunder Panchen's plan, Dalai sought for help from the Qing Emperor todrive Gushri Khan away. Panchen 5th further got the title confirmationfrom Qing Emperor in 1713 from Kangxi.
3. The Title Panchen or Dalai did not come from among themselves. The3rd Dalai, Soinam Gyatso (1543—1588) successful converted Altan Khanof Tumet Mongols in 1578 and they exchanged titles. So Soinam Gyatsogot his Dalai, meaning Sea of Wisdom. Altan Khan had been granted byMing Dynasty as Shunyi Lord. Well in ancient times, communications werenot like now, so being in the remote Tibetan Plateau, Ming might seem agreat dynasty to Soinam Gyatso, who asked Altan Khan to seek foracknowledgment from the Ming Emperor, while he himself wrote to thePrime Minister Zhang Juzheng for grant of his title. The Ming Emperorallowed his wish and the grant script had "Dalai" and was laterconfirmed in 1587. Soinam Gystso prepared to go to Beijing to expresshis thanks but died on the way in Mongolia in 1588. This was the storyof Dalai's title, and was clearly documented in the Ming's account. Notsomething invented in 1995 in Australia.
4. If you read your quote carefully, you will find it's self-contradictory.
"[color=Red]although they did not belong to Tashi Lhünpo monastery[/color]",the tie between Panchen and Tashi Lhünpo basically started from Panchan4th. Tashi Lhünpo was built by Gendün Drüp in 1447, The 1st twoPanchens (Khedrup Je, 1385–1438, Sönam Choklang 1438–1505) were eitherdead or happily heading his own Ganden Monastery.
"[color=Red]Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen’s successor was later recognised as the fourth Panchen Lama.[/color]"
If your notable scholar did his study, he won't make such mistakes.Dalai's title was retroactively granted to the 1st 2 Dalai, because itwas 3rd Dalai who started the title, and for Panchen, there were 3previous Panchen for such retroactive recognition, because it was the4th Panchen who started to hold this title. Therefore Losang ChökyiGyeltsen’s successor should be the 5th Panchen Lama. If he cannot getsuch simple fact right, I can't believe he can get other stuff anybetter either. In my words, only fooling people more stupid andignorant than him.
Panchen 4th actually helped to establish Dalai 4th, as well as Dalai5th, and had much to contribute in the establishment of Dalai 5thactually. Why? because Dalai 4th met sudden death, after being Dalaifor 5 years at the age of 27!!! Panchen 4th was not only a learnedmonk, he was a great politician. It was he who master-mind thecollaboration with Gushri Khan and later with Qing Dynasty to stabilizeGelug against the other sects. As mentioned aforesaid, he was 64 andDalai 5th was only 17. Rather than it was Dalai who GAVE his teacherthe Tashi Lhünpo, would it not be "face saving" as your notable scholarsaid, that the young Dalai had no choice, or that he owed a lot toPanchan? So much so that it was not "who" GAVE "whom" what title ortemple, as a from top to bottom kind of implication, but rather aswhose muscle was stronger?
When studying something far from your own culture and historybackground, how can one rely on just bits and pieces from hearsay orso-called research of one "scholar" and accept everything as-is,without really in-depth study and considering all the historical,political, cultural background and their inter-related cause andeffect, and claim one's knowledge is THE FACT?
譯文, 最好有熟悉西藏歷史朋友指正, 因我也是網上搜資料 好哇, Anonymous, 你那有名的學者該是當時任澳洲National University亞洲歷史中心高級講師的John Power吧? 不懂為什麼你不引他名字出來?
如果他真是有名學者, 他必須發奮來實符其名才行了。你引的第一段打第一行就錯誤連連。
1. Bodong Choklay Namgyel, 如果我們是同樣指覺南派創始人布敦却雷南杰(Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal發音: Choklay Namgyel, 1306～1386) 的話。(引用: Tucci (1949), pp.659-661,p.704, fn.848及Table XVI-Genealogy of Zhva Lu，Ruegg, pp.12-13)
根敦朱巴, 或達賴一世生卒是1391-1474。請查對一下, 你那 Choklay Namgyel 能同期稱根敦朱巴是「大學者」?根敦朱巴這孩子是他自己死了5年之後才誕生的, 可能嗎?? 太神了吧? 然後這却雷南杰是何許人也? 他真是個大學者,事實上是達賴一世那傳奇師傅宗喀巴(1357-1419)的老師
却雷南杰(1306～1386)
宗喀巴 (1357-1419).
根敦朱巴(1391-1474), 對頭吧??
2. 「班禪」封號不是由達賴五世給的, 而是由蒙古和碩特部固始汗 (1582-1654)給的。1634年達賴五世及班禪四世(由64歲的班禪四世策劃,因達賴五世才17歲)受到其他西藏教派威脅而連合固始汗來壓制對手。可是固始汗易請難送,賴在西藏了。後來又是班禪計謀連清朝以對付固始汗。後來班禪五世又從清帝康熙那裡再獲封號確認。
3. 班禪跟班禪的封號都不是他們自己互相贈予的。三世達賴索南嘉措 (1543- 1588) 成功在1578年勸服了土默特部的俺答汗信佛教,他們互換封號。索南嘉措就得「達賴」之名, 意為智慧海。俺答汗當時已受明朝封為順義王。那時代訊息不像我們現在,處於邊遠西藏高原的索南嘉措可能覺得大明朝還是了不起, 他請求俺答汗為他向明朝請封, 他自己也向宰相張居正求封。後來皇帝頒封裡就有「達賴」兩字,然後在1587年確認, 索南嘉措還準備去北京謝恩, 誰知1588年到了蒙古就死掉了。這就是達賴封號的來由, 而且是在明朝宮廷記錄記載,不是1995年在澳洲創作的。
4. 如果你仔細看自己所引, 就會發覺是自相矛盾的:
「虽然他们并不属于扎什伦布寺」, 班禪跟札什倫布寺連在一起基本是從班禪四世才開始的。札什倫布寺是根敦朱巴建於1447年, 班禪一世及二世 (克珠傑 1385–1438, 索南卻朗1438–1505) 一個早就死了, 另一人正好好當他甘丹寺主持。
「罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者后来被承认为班禅四世」
如果你那有名學者有下功夫的話, 他不會犯這種錯誤。達賴封號是追封了一世及二世達賴, 因為是達賴三世才明確封號的; 而班禪則是追封了三位,因為是班禪四世才開始擁有封號的。所以罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者, 應該是班禅五世。如果他連如此基本的東西都鬧不清,我不相信他別的事情能有多高明。依我說, 頂多是能愚弄比他更蠢更無知的人而已。
班禪四世其實在確立達賴四世及五世時, 特別是五世的擁立出了大力。為什麼? 因為達賴四世突然在登位五年就在27歲之齡暴斃!!!班禪不但是精於佛學, 而且也是個大政治家。是他一手策劃與固始汗及其後與清廷連絡以讓格魯派與其他派別抗衡的。如前述, 他當時64歲,達賴五世才17歲。與其說是達賴給札什倫布寺給了他老師, 不很可能是你有名學者說的「留顏面」, 年輕的達賴根本別無選擇, 又或他欠了班禪大人情?所以並不是如所謂的有自上而下的誰給誰什麼封號或寺, 而是誰比較大腕而已?
談一些自己不熟悉的文化歷史, 卻不去博覽全觀有關的政治全局背景, 人云亦云的道聽途說當專家, 成嗎?
Well, Anonymous, your noted scholar should be John Power, who was thenSenior Lecturer in the Asian History Centre, the Australian NationalUniversity. I don't understand why you didn't quote his name?
If he is really a noted scholar, then he must work harder to live upwith his name. The first quote is full of misrepresentations andmistakes, starting from the 1st line.
1. [color=Red]Bodong Choklay Namgyel[/color], if we are referring to the same the founder of the Jonang-pa sect, [color=Red]Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal[/color] (pronounced [color=Red]Choklay Namgyel[/color],1306～1386) (Ref. Tucci (1949), pp.659-661, p.704, fn.848及TableXVI-Genealogy of Zhva Lu，Ruegg, pp.12-13) or your Bodong ChoklayNamgyei).
Gendün Drüp, or the 1st Dalai birth and death years are1391-1474. Please verify yourself, how can your contemporary ChoklayNamgyel addressed Gendün Drüp as "Great Scholar", when the boy wasonly born 5 years after he died?? Fascinating, isn't it? And who isthis Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal or your Bodong Choklay Namgyei? He was agreat scholar indeed, and actually teacher of 1st Dalai 's master, thelegendary Tsongkhapa (1357-1419).
Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal or your Bodong Choklay Namgyei, (1306～1386)
Tsongkhapa (1357-1419).
Gendün Drüp (1391-1474), make sense??
2. The Title "Panchen" was not conferred by Dalai 5th, but Gushri Khan(1582-1654) of Khoshut. In 1634, Dalai 5th and Panchen 4th(masterminded by Panchen 4th aged 64, as Dalai 5th was 17) werethreatened by other Tibetan sects and linked with Gushri Khan tosuppress their rivals. But Gushri Khan then set foot in Tibet. Laterunder Panchen's plan, Dalai sought for help from the Qing Emperor todrive Gushri Khan away. Panchen 5th further got the title confirmationfrom Qing Emperor in 1713 from Kangxi.
3. The Title Panchen or Dalai did not come from among themselves. The3rd Dalai, Soinam Gyatso (1543—1588) successful converted Altan Khanof Tumet Mongols in 1578 and they exchanged titles. So Soinam Gyatsogot his Dalai, meaning Sea of Wisdom. Altan Khan had been granted byMing Dynasty as Shunyi Lord. Well in ancient times, communications werenot like now, so being in the remote Tibetan Plateau, Ming might seem agreat dynasty to Soinam Gyatso, who asked Altan Khan to seek foracknowledgment from the Ming Emperor, while he himself wrote to thePrime Minister Zhang Juzheng for grant of his title. The Ming Emperorallowed his wish and the grant script had "Dalai" and was laterconfirmed in 1587. Soinam Gystso prepared to go to Beijing to expresshis thanks but died on the way in Mongolia in 1588. This was the storyof Dalai's title, and was clearly documented in the Ming's account. Notsomething invented in 1995 in Australia.
4. If you read your quote carefully, you will find it's self-contradictory.
"[color=Red]although they did not belong to Tashi Lhünpo monastery[/color]",the tie between Panchen and Tashi Lhünpo basically started from Panchan4th. Tashi Lhünpo was built by Gendün Drüp in 1447, The 1st twoPanchens (Khedrup Je, 1385–1438, Sönam Choklang 1438–1505) were eitherdead or happily heading his own Ganden Monastery.
"[color=Red]Losang Chökyi Gyeltsen’s successor was later recognised as the fourth Panchen Lama.[/color]"
If your notable scholar did his study, he won't make such mistakes.Dalai's title was retroactively granted to the 1st 2 Dalai, because itwas 3rd Dalai who started the title, and for Panchen, there were 3previous Panchen for such retroactive recognition, because it was the4th Panchen who started to hold this title. Therefore Losang ChökyiGyeltsen’s successor should be the 5th Panchen Lama. If he cannot getsuch simple fact right, I can't believe he can get other stuff anybetter either. In my words, only fooling people more stupid andignorant than him.
Panchen 4th actually helped to establish Dalai 4th, as well as Dalai5th, and had much to contribute in the establishment of Dalai 5thactually. Why? because Dalai 4th met sudden death, after being Dalaifor 5 years at the age of 27!!! Panchen 4th was not only a learnedmonk, he was a great politician. It was he who master-mind thecollaboration with Gushri Khan and later with Qing Dynasty to stabilizeGelug against the other sects. As mentioned aforesaid, he was 64 andDalai 5th was only 17. Rather than it was Dalai who GAVE his teacherthe Tashi Lhünpo, would it not be "face saving" as your notable scholarsaid, that the young Dalai had no choice, or that he owed a lot toPanchan? So much so that it was not "who" GAVE "whom" what title ortemple, as a from top to bottom kind of implication, but rather aswhose muscle was stronger?
When studying something far from your own culture and historybackground, how can one rely on just bits and pieces from hearsay orso-called research of one "scholar" and accept everything as-is,without really in-depth study and considering all the historical,political, cultural background and their inter-related cause andeffect, and claim one's knowledge is THE FACT?
譯文, 最好有熟悉西藏歷史朋友指正, 因我也是網上搜資料 好哇, Anonymous, 你那有名的學者該是當時任澳洲National University亞洲歷史中心高級講師的John Power吧? 不懂為什麼你不引他名字出來?
如果他真是有名學者, 他必須發奮來實符其名才行了。你引的第一段打第一行就錯誤連連。
1. Bodong Choklay Namgyel, 如果我們是同樣指覺南派創始人布敦却雷南杰(Phyogs-las Rnam-rgyal發音: Choklay Namgyel, 1306～1386) 的話。(引用: Tucci (1949), pp.659-661,p.704, fn.848及Table XVI-Genealogy of Zhva Lu，Ruegg, pp.12-13)
根敦朱巴, 或達賴一世生卒是1391-1474。請查對一下, 你那 Choklay Namgyel 能同期稱根敦朱巴是「大學者」?根敦朱巴這孩子是他自己死了5年之後才誕生的, 可能嗎?? 太神了吧? 然後這却雷南杰是何許人也? 他真是個大學者,事實上是達賴一世那傳奇師傅宗喀巴(1357-1419)的老師
却雷南杰(1306～1386)
宗喀巴 (1357-1419).
根敦朱巴(1391-1474), 對頭吧??
2. 「班禪」封號不是由達賴五世給的, 而是由蒙古和碩特部固始汗 (1582-1654)給的。1634年達賴五世及班禪四世(由64歲的班禪四世策劃,因達賴五世才17歲)受到其他西藏教派威脅而連合固始汗來壓制對手。可是固始汗易請難送,賴在西藏了。後來又是班禪計謀連清朝以對付固始汗。後來班禪五世又從清帝康熙那裡再獲封號確認。
3. 班禪跟班禪的封號都不是他們自己互相贈予的。三世達賴索南嘉措 (1543- 1588) 成功在1578年勸服了土默特部的俺答汗信佛教,他們互換封號。索南嘉措就得「達賴」之名, 意為智慧海。俺答汗當時已受明朝封為順義王。那時代訊息不像我們現在,處於邊遠西藏高原的索南嘉措可能覺得大明朝還是了不起, 他請求俺答汗為他向明朝請封, 他自己也向宰相張居正求封。後來皇帝頒封裡就有「達賴」兩字,然後在1587年確認, 索南嘉措還準備去北京謝恩, 誰知1588年到了蒙古就死掉了。這就是達賴封號的來由, 而且是在明朝宮廷記錄記載,不是1995年在澳洲創作的。
4. 如果你仔細看自己所引, 就會發覺是自相矛盾的:
「虽然他们并不属于扎什伦布寺」, 班禪跟札什倫布寺連在一起基本是從班禪四世才開始的。札什倫布寺是根敦朱巴建於1447年, 班禪一世及二世 (克珠傑 1385–1438, 索南卻朗1438–1505) 一個早就死了, 另一人正好好當他甘丹寺主持。
「罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者后来被承认为班禅四世」
如果你那有名學者有下功夫的話, 他不會犯這種錯誤。達賴封號是追封了一世及二世達賴, 因為是達賴三世才明確封號的; 而班禪則是追封了三位,因為是班禪四世才開始擁有封號的。所以罗桑却吉坚赞的继任者, 應該是班禅五世。如果他連如此基本的東西都鬧不清,我不相信他別的事情能有多高明。依我說, 頂多是能愚弄比他更蠢更無知的人而已。
班禪四世其實在確立達賴四世及五世時, 特別是五世的擁立出了大力。為什麼? 因為達賴四世突然在登位五年就在27歲之齡暴斃!!!班禪不但是精於佛學, 而且也是個大政治家。是他一手策劃與固始汗及其後與清廷連絡以讓格魯派與其他派別抗衡的。如前述, 他當時64歲,達賴五世才17歲。與其說是達賴給札什倫布寺給了他老師, 不很可能是你有名學者說的「留顏面」, 年輕的達賴根本別無選擇, 又或他欠了班禪大人情?所以並不是如所謂的有自上而下的誰給誰什麼封號或寺, 而是誰比較大腕而已?
談一些自己不熟悉的文化歷史, 卻不去博覽全觀有關的政治全局背景, 人云亦云的道聽途說當專家, 成嗎?
2008-6-26 05:21
老农
花花
感谢楼主翻译!
我全篇看过两个美国白领的<西藏日记>视频，两位评选出来的幸运者（一男一女），可以得到免费的西藏七日旅游，在来之前他们的谈话里面，他们都很兴奋，并且支持“自由西藏”运动，认为那是天经地义的。从他们到达西藏江孜开始，他们每天都有一个总结和评论，真实的西藏之旅不断刷新他们对西藏的认识，比如第二天的总结里，就已经得出了：我发现黄教只是藏传佛教四大教的一个，因此很多西藏人并不认同DL喇嘛的政治主张。这样的结论。还有很多，比如：拉萨市很现代化，西藏手机信号甚至好过佛罗里拉等等。
在最后的总结里，两位白领都完全推翻了之前对西藏人认识，他们说：经过他们所见所闻，并不认为西藏有成为一个独立国家的必要。并劝告没有来过西藏人西方人，不要带着成见来，要了解真实的西藏。
这和文章的作者的讲述一模一样，也更正了一些我先前对西藏的认识。
再次感谢翻译辛苦，支持你！
感谢楼主翻译!
我全篇看过两个美国白领的<西藏日记>视频，两位评选出来的幸运者（一男一女），可以得到免费的西藏七日旅游，在来之前他们的谈话里面，他们都很兴奋，并且支持“自由西藏”运动，认为那是天经地义的。从他们到达西藏江孜开始，他们每天都有一个总结和评论，真实的西藏之旅不断刷新他们对西藏的认识，比如第二天的总结里，就已经得出了：我发现黄教只是藏传佛教四大教的一个，因此很多西藏人并不认同DL喇嘛的政治主张。这样的结论。还有很多，比如：拉萨市很现代化，西藏手机信号甚至好过佛罗里拉等等。
在最后的总结里，两位白领都完全推翻了之前对西藏人认识，他们说：经过他们所见所闻，并不认为西藏有成为一个独立国家的必要。并劝告没有来过西藏人西方人，不要带着成见来，要了解真实的西藏。
这和文章的作者的讲述一模一样，也更正了一些我先前对西藏的认识。
再次感谢翻译辛苦，支持你！
2008-6-26 05:24
老农
天堂中的鹅
Gyalwa就是那个14岁逃到印度的大宝法王。=======================这个是一个错误的说法，大宝法王是白教的，他到印度去不是逃过去的，是因为白教的一个重要法器（一顶帽子）在印度，他跑到印度去是继承那顶帽子。而且他自己也说他不是流亡过去的。白教在国外是密宗比较有影响力的。
关于17世噶玛巴(大宝法王)
做为藏传佛教的重要活佛白教噶玛噶举的活佛噶玛巴法王有着仅次于黄教的dl喇嘛和班禅喇嘛的重要地位。由于16世噶玛巴在美国圆寂时没有留下明确的遗嘱导致给寻找16世噶玛巴转世灵童带来了困难。16世噶玛巴在50年代末离开西藏的时候除了带走重要的法器和财务还带走了一群年轻的小活佛。其中有四位小活佛成为16世噶玛巴的重要助手。他们是夏玛巴活佛、大司徒（泰锡度）活佛、蒋贡活佛、杰曹活佛。这里要提一下夏玛巴活佛，他就是因为叛乱而被乾隆皇帝下令在第十世就已禁止转世的红帽系活佛。不过虽然中央政府和西藏地方政府都禁止了夏玛巴活佛的转世，但是，秘密的转世还在进行中。除了 11世没有确切的记录后面的几世都有记录。做为噶玛派的第二大活佛，香火虽断但是传承确没有断。这位14世夏玛巴是16世噶玛巴的侄儿，在一同出走到印度后16世噶玛巴拜会的dl喇嘛。说服dl喇嘛承认夏玛巴的转世有效，确认14世夏玛巴的法王地位。流亡的dl同意了噶玛巴请求废除了以前的禁令恢复了夏玛巴的转世。
为什么要提他呢？因为后面的双胞案和这位活佛有重要关系了。16世噶玛巴在世的时候立了一个规矩，教派中的事物由前面说的4位大活佛轮流掌管，每三年轮换。但是在夏玛巴法王应该交出权利给大司徒活佛的时候他破坏了这个规矩，没有交出权利。前面说了由于一直没有找到遗嘱给转世灵童的寻找带来了困难。直到 1990年的一天，司徒活佛突然从16世大宝法王给他的护身符中找到一首诗。这首寺被认为是法王转世的指引。于是活佛们决定由西藏的楚布寺负责寻找16世大宝法王的转世灵童。很明显的是夏玛巴活佛在寻找转世灵童这一事件上不占有主导地位，虽然历史上噶玛巴和夏玛巴有相互承认的惯例。不久双方对于遗嘱的认定和真伪出现了分歧。夏玛巴活佛认为后来出现的信件不像前世噶玛巴的手迹怀疑是伪造的要求鉴定，但是司徒活佛断然决绝了鉴定的要求。夏玛巴活佛和原来16世噶玛巴的一位管家（注：也是噶玛巴的另一位侄儿），决定另外寻找转世灵童。这时司徒活佛主导的寻访人员已经确认了17世噶玛巴乌金赤列多杰。并且不久之后就得到了中央政府和dl喇嘛的双重承认。但是14世夏玛巴活佛凭借其特殊的地位和身份确认了另外一位17世大宝法王泰耶多杰。至此大宝法王的双胞案算是正式出现了。虽然很多活佛和信众都承认乌金赤列多杰才是真的大宝法王，但是很多人也不原意明确反对泰耶多杰。很多信众的想法也很简单，就算其中一位不是大宝法王，也是一位转世的活佛只不过认错了而已。因为不是活佛是坐不到这个位置上的。比如14世大宝法王转世的时候出现一位灵童，但是才3岁就在一次玩耍中跌落摔死了。后来就再找了一位15世的大宝法王。信众的眼里前面那个小孩就不是转世的活佛所以坐不到这个位置就死了。
由于2位大宝法王的出现导致了教派的分裂，所以印度政府不同意他们去锡金的德隆寺拿到黑帽系法王的信物——黑帽宝冠。此前夏玛巴法王就对出走印度的乌金赤列多杰喊话让他不要去锡金否则也会让泰耶多杰去锡金一争高下。泰耶多杰去台湾访问的时候就出现了乌金赤列多杰的信众抗议的场面。从目前的形式看来乌金赤列多杰蛮想的占有上风。一度传出一度政府将同意乌金赤列多杰去锡金德隆寺继承法器的说法。
Gyalwa就是那个14岁逃到印度的大宝法王。=======================这个是一个错误的说法，大宝法王是白教的，他到印度去不是逃过去的，是因为白教的一个重要法器（一顶帽子）在印度，他跑到印度去是继承那顶帽子。而且他自己也说他不是流亡过去的。白教在国外是密宗比较有影响力的。
关于17世噶玛巴(大宝法王)
做为藏传佛教的重要活佛白教噶玛噶举的活佛噶玛巴法王有着仅次于黄教的dl喇嘛和班禅喇嘛的重要地位。由于16世噶玛巴在美国圆寂时没有留下明确的遗嘱导致给寻找16世噶玛巴转世灵童带来了困难。16世噶玛巴在50年代末离开西藏的时候除了带走重要的法器和财务还带走了一群年轻的小活佛。其中有四位小活佛成为16世噶玛巴的重要助手。他们是夏玛巴活佛、大司徒（泰锡度）活佛、蒋贡活佛、杰曹活佛。这里要提一下夏玛巴活佛，他就是因为叛乱而被乾隆皇帝下令在第十世就已禁止转世的红帽系活佛。不过虽然中央政府和西藏地方政府都禁止了夏玛巴活佛的转世，但是，秘密的转世还在进行中。除了 11世没有确切的记录后面的几世都有记录。做为噶玛派的第二大活佛，香火虽断但是传承确没有断。这位14世夏玛巴是16世噶玛巴的侄儿，在一同出走到印度后16世噶玛巴拜会的dl喇嘛。说服dl喇嘛承认夏玛巴的转世有效，确认14世夏玛巴的法王地位。流亡的dl同意了噶玛巴请求废除了以前的禁令恢复了夏玛巴的转世。
为什么要提他呢？因为后面的双胞案和这位活佛有重要关系了。16世噶玛巴在世的时候立了一个规矩，教派中的事物由前面说的4位大活佛轮流掌管，每三年轮换。但是在夏玛巴法王应该交出权利给大司徒活佛的时候他破坏了这个规矩，没有交出权利。前面说了由于一直没有找到遗嘱给转世灵童的寻找带来了困难。直到 1990年的一天，司徒活佛突然从16世大宝法王给他的护身符中找到一首诗。这首寺被认为是法王转世的指引。于是活佛们决定由西藏的楚布寺负责寻找16世大宝法王的转世灵童。很明显的是夏玛巴活佛在寻找转世灵童这一事件上不占有主导地位，虽然历史上噶玛巴和夏玛巴有相互承认的惯例。不久双方对于遗嘱的认定和真伪出现了分歧。夏玛巴活佛认为后来出现的信件不像前世噶玛巴的手迹怀疑是伪造的要求鉴定，但是司徒活佛断然决绝了鉴定的要求。夏玛巴活佛和原来16世噶玛巴的一位管家（注：也是噶玛巴的另一位侄儿），决定另外寻找转世灵童。这时司徒活佛主导的寻访人员已经确认了17世噶玛巴乌金赤列多杰。并且不久之后就得到了中央政府和dl喇嘛的双重承认。但是14世夏玛巴活佛凭借其特殊的地位和身份确认了另外一位17世大宝法王泰耶多杰。至此大宝法王的双胞案算是正式出现了。虽然很多活佛和信众都承认乌金赤列多杰才是真的大宝法王，但是很多人也不原意明确反对泰耶多杰。很多信众的想法也很简单，就算其中一位不是大宝法王，也是一位转世的活佛只不过认错了而已。因为不是活佛是坐不到这个位置上的。比如14世大宝法王转世的时候出现一位灵童，但是才3岁就在一次玩耍中跌落摔死了。后来就再找了一位15世的大宝法王。信众的眼里前面那个小孩就不是转世的活佛所以坐不到这个位置就死了。
由于2位大宝法王的出现导致了教派的分裂，所以印度政府不同意他们去锡金的德隆寺拿到黑帽系法王的信物——黑帽宝冠。此前夏玛巴法王就对出走印度的乌金赤列多杰喊话让他不要去锡金否则也会让泰耶多杰去锡金一争高下。泰耶多杰去台湾访问的时候就出现了乌金赤列多杰的信众抗议的场面。从目前的形式看来乌金赤列多杰蛮想的占有上风。一度传出一度政府将同意乌金赤列多杰去锡金德隆寺继承法器的说法。
2008-6-26 05:24
老农
suxi
谢谢您的指点，关于这方面的纷这种说法我倒是第一次看见，涨知识了，我以前一直在国外的ＤＬ和大宝法王一些信众的空间或网站里看东西，全都很藏毒，让我印象最深的是好多网站说大宝法王是怎样逃脱层层监视，作为一个少年逃到达兰萨拉，追随DL，当然写得很煽情，还为此出了本书，我越看越对大宝法王的印象越不好，毕竟是中央政府第一次承认的活佛，怎么就去印度了？而且我发现这在他国外的信众中，被普遍认同。况且，他还住在达兰萨拉的下密院。不知是被国外藏毒分子杜撰的还是真有这回事，因为那些网站上，他一直是和ＤＬ出现在一起的，在真假１１世班禅之争的网站（网址上面已给出），也有他的名字出现。如果正如他所说不是逃去印度，不是ＤＬ支持，那么他当年为何在没有或许甚至签证的情况下离开中国？如今他又回过西藏么？回过噶玛噶举的本寺楚布寺么？一系列的疑问在我脑中～～
当然我也知道，统战部和宗教局都批准了在中国的一些专门关于他的正式网站和讨论板什么的，所以他现在在中国很热门，因为他毕竟是我们中央政府承认的，再加上您所说的双胞胎之争，我想政府肯定站在他的一边，所以搁置争议，既往不咎，您说呢？还有不要忘了ＤＬ是支持他的，他们同样住在达兰萨拉，我想您该知道这是西藏流亡政府的首都，所以在国外的藏毒网站他和ＤＬ才会被放在一起。
谢谢您的指点，关于这方面的纷这种说法我倒是第一次看见，涨知识了，我以前一直在国外的ＤＬ和大宝法王一些信众的空间或网站里看东西，全都很藏毒，让我印象最深的是好多网站说大宝法王是怎样逃脱层层监视，作为一个少年逃到达兰萨拉，追随DL，当然写得很煽情，还为此出了本书，我越看越对大宝法王的印象越不好，毕竟是中央政府第一次承认的活佛，怎么就去印度了？而且我发现这在他国外的信众中，被普遍认同。况且，他还住在达兰萨拉的下密院。不知是被国外藏毒分子杜撰的还是真有这回事，因为那些网站上，他一直是和ＤＬ出现在一起的，在真假１１世班禅之争的网站（网址上面已给出），也有他的名字出现。如果正如他所说不是逃去印度，不是ＤＬ支持，那么他当年为何在没有或许甚至签证的情况下离开中国？如今他又回过西藏么？回过噶玛噶举的本寺楚布寺么？一系列的疑问在我脑中～～
当然我也知道，统战部和宗教局都批准了在中国的一些专门关于他的正式网站和讨论板什么的，所以他现在在中国很热门，因为他毕竟是我们中央政府承认的，再加上您所说的双胞胎之争，我想政府肯定站在他的一边，所以搁置争议，既往不咎，您说呢？还有不要忘了ＤＬ是支持他的，他们同样住在达兰萨拉，我想您该知道这是西藏流亡政府的首都，所以在国外的藏毒网站他和ＤＬ才会被放在一起。
2008-6-26 05:25
老农
天堂中的鹅
其实他们两人之间的关系，并不是像外面传说的那么好，DL由于先出国所以在国外藏人里面影响比较大，所以大宝法王也必须和他搞好关系，但不同的是大宝法王在国外的影响主要集中在外国人还有华人特别是一些港澳人士。而且大宝法王自己都承认不是受政治迫害出来的。大宝法王在离开白教祖庭楚布寺前，留下一封信说，他“此行是到国外去取历代噶玛巴活佛的黑帽和法器，不是背叛国家和民族，不是背叛寺庙和领导”。大宝法王离开西藏的最主要目的，在于寻找噶玛噶举派传承证物并展开广泛的学习，心愿完成后一定会回国
其实他们两人之间的关系，并不是像外面传说的那么好，DL由于先出国所以在国外藏人里面影响比较大，所以大宝法王也必须和他搞好关系，但不同的是大宝法王在国外的影响主要集中在外国人还有华人特别是一些港澳人士。而且大宝法王自己都承认不是受政治迫害出来的。大宝法王在离开白教祖庭楚布寺前，留下一封信说，他“此行是到国外去取历代噶玛巴活佛的黑帽和法器，不是背叛国家和民族，不是背叛寺庙和领导”。大宝法王离开西藏的最主要目的，在于寻找噶玛噶举派传承证物并展开广泛的学习，心愿完成后一定会回国
2008-6-26 05:27
老农
天堂中的鹅
噶玛巴是藏传佛教地位第三高的领袖，次于dl喇嘛和班禅喇嘛。
藏传佛教在第八世纪形成，分格鲁、噶举、萨迦、宁玛和原始教
苯教等教派。噶举派则用前世活佛遗嘱寻访认定。格鲁派用金瓶掣签
形式选定转世活佛。
清朝乾隆皇帝在1793年颁布《钦定藏内善后章程二十九条》，规
定中央政府对dl和班禅喇嘛转世灵童有最后裁定权。
1992年，楚布寺喇嘛遵照16世噶玛巴日白多吉的遗嘱，在藏东昌
都牧区寻获8岁男童阿布嘎嘎，并根据历史仪轨，报经北京当局批准
确认，同年9月27日在拉萨楚布寺举行坐床典礼，继任为17世噶玛巴
。16世噶玛巴在1959年离开中国。
伍金赤列今年15岁，是中国政府自1959年以来正式批准认定的西
藏首位转世活佛，也是中国和dl喇嘛都能接受的少数活佛之一。
伍金赤列曾于1994年首次到中国内地的参观，参加新中国45年周
年庆典，并获得中共中央总书记兼国家主席江泽民接见。伍金赤列也
到北京、上海等城市参观，以及到五台山和峨嵋山等地名刹朝圣。
去年1月，他再度飞离拉萨，到广州、福建省、浙江省和北京访
问25天。
去年7月，他到日喀则，在班禅驻地德庆格桑颇章拜见11世班禅
额尔德尼·确吉杰布。
去年11月，锡金的泰耶多杰以大宝法王的身分访问台湾，引起伍
金赤列支持者抗议，使大宝法王双包案受到外界注意。
大宝法王是藏传佛教白派的噶玛噶举派对于噶玛巴的尊称，头戴
黑宝冠。
可是，根据泰耶多杰支持者的说法，大宝法王是出生时或极幼小
时做自我认证明，并与红宝冠法王夏玛巴相互认证，泰耶多杰由夏玛
巴寻获后，在1994年印度受教。
所以说DL承认大宝法王主要是想拉拢他，大宝法王和DL保持“友好”主要是利用他海外的影响力
噶玛巴是藏传佛教地位第三高的领袖，次于dl喇嘛和班禅喇嘛。
藏传佛教在第八世纪形成，分格鲁、噶举、萨迦、宁玛和原始教
苯教等教派。噶举派则用前世活佛遗嘱寻访认定。格鲁派用金瓶掣签
形式选定转世活佛。
清朝乾隆皇帝在1793年颁布《钦定藏内善后章程二十九条》，规
定中央政府对dl和班禅喇嘛转世灵童有最后裁定权。
1992年，楚布寺喇嘛遵照16世噶玛巴日白多吉的遗嘱，在藏东昌
都牧区寻获8岁男童阿布嘎嘎，并根据历史仪轨，报经北京当局批准
确认，同年9月27日在拉萨楚布寺举行坐床典礼，继任为17世噶玛巴
。16世噶玛巴在1959年离开中国。
伍金赤列今年15岁，是中国政府自1959年以来正式批准认定的西
藏首位转世活佛，也是中国和dl喇嘛都能接受的少数活佛之一。
伍金赤列曾于1994年首次到中国内地的参观，参加新中国45年周
年庆典，并获得中共中央总书记兼国家主席江泽民接见。伍金赤列也
到北京、上海等城市参观，以及到五台山和峨嵋山等地名刹朝圣。
去年1月，他再度飞离拉萨，到广州、福建省、浙江省和北京访
问25天。
去年7月，他到日喀则，在班禅驻地德庆格桑颇章拜见11世班禅
额尔德尼·确吉杰布。
去年11月，锡金的泰耶多杰以大宝法王的身分访问台湾，引起伍
金赤列支持者抗议，使大宝法王双包案受到外界注意。
大宝法王是藏传佛教白派的噶玛噶举派对于噶玛巴的尊称，头戴
黑宝冠。
可是，根据泰耶多杰支持者的说法，大宝法王是出生时或极幼小
时做自我认证明，并与红宝冠法王夏玛巴相互认证，泰耶多杰由夏玛
巴寻获后，在1994年印度受教。
所以说DL承认大宝法王主要是想拉拢他，大宝法王和DL保持“友好”主要是利用他海外的影响力
2008-6-26 05:28
老农
carrie1979
我也很奇怪，为什么大宝法王一去八年不回呢？是不是他身边的人出了什么问题？我很难相信他是自愿的。
在印度他的生活，信徒的人数肯定都远远不能和在国内相比，他这样做的目的是什么呢？难道真是他走时在信中所说的一样，为了取前世留下的信物？我觉得理由不太充分。现在已过了八年了，信物未取到他为何不回？而且当年他出国的时候还小，很难让人相信这是他自己本人的意愿。
我很怀疑他是否被人挟持或控制了。
我也很奇怪，为什么大宝法王一去八年不回呢？是不是他身边的人出了什么问题？我很难相信他是自愿的。
在印度他的生活，信徒的人数肯定都远远不能和在国内相比，他这样做的目的是什么呢？难道真是他走时在信中所说的一样，为了取前世留下的信物？我觉得理由不太充分。现在已过了八年了，信物未取到他为何不回？而且当年他出国的时候还小，很难让人相信这是他自己本人的意愿。
我很怀疑他是否被人挟持或控制了。
2008-6-26 05:29
老农
suxi
我给教我原始艺术的老师发了邮件，她以前在西藏大学教书，是博导，主要研究西藏佛教寺院的壁画，现在主要研究西藏岩画，所以她应该是这方面的专家了，她给我的回复如下：
——————————
Bodong Choklay Namgyel 应该是觉囊派的一位高僧，名叫“博东·乔列南杰”（1306-1386），与布顿大师无关，布顿全名为“布顿仁钦珠”（1290-1364）藏文转写为： bu-ston rin-chen-grub，与前者区别很大，当然两者的年代大致接近。
王森《西藏佛教发展史略》中说：乔列南杰（phyogs-las rnan-rgyal，1306-1386），又称博东巴，阿里人，幼年时到前藏学法，在群科林寺学般若、因明等显教经论及大小五明，历游前后藏辨场，成为有名的“学者”。后在一次辨经时遇到了笃补巴，生起了敬信之心，遂去觉囊寺从笃补巴学习时轮金刚的讲解、灌顶及其秘密教法，征得“很高的定力”，遂以笃补巴为根本上师。（王森《西藏佛教发展史略》，中国社会科学出版社，1987年第一版，第161页）。
又他的老师笃补巴，名喜饶坚赞（d0l-bu-pa shes-rab rgyal-mtsham,1290-1361），他的年代与布顿大师大致相当，但教派不同。他是觉囊派著名高僧，常随弟子可达2000人以上。
就这样吧！
——————————
所以我发现你当时找的那个“却雷南杰”就是这个“乔列南杰”（phyogs-las rnan-rgyal，1306-1386）只不过他和布顿大师没有关系，又叫Bodong Choklay Namgyel 是“博东巴”，呵呵我怎么也没想到居然是这意思
我给教我原始艺术的老师发了邮件，她以前在西藏大学教书，是博导，主要研究西藏佛教寺院的壁画，现在主要研究西藏岩画，所以她应该是这方面的专家了，她给我的回复如下：
——————————
Bodong Choklay Namgyel 应该是觉囊派的一位高僧，名叫“博东·乔列南杰”（1306-1386），与布顿大师无关，布顿全名为“布顿仁钦珠”（1290-1364）藏文转写为： bu-ston rin-chen-grub，与前者区别很大，当然两者的年代大致接近。
王森《西藏佛教发展史略》中说：乔列南杰（phyogs-las rnan-rgyal，1306-1386），又称博东巴，阿里人，幼年时到前藏学法，在群科林寺学般若、因明等显教经论及大小五明，历游前后藏辨场，成为有名的“学者”。后在一次辨经时遇到了笃补巴，生起了敬信之心，遂去觉囊寺从笃补巴学习时轮金刚的讲解、灌顶及其秘密教法，征得“很高的定力”，遂以笃补巴为根本上师。（王森《西藏佛教发展史略》，中国社会科学出版社，1987年第一版，第161页）。
又他的老师笃补巴，名喜饶坚赞（d0l-bu-pa shes-rab rgyal-mtsham,1290-1361），他的年代与布顿大师大致相当，但教派不同。他是觉囊派著名高僧，常随弟子可达2000人以上。
就这样吧！
——————————
所以我发现你当时找的那个“却雷南杰”就是这个“乔列南杰”（phyogs-las rnan-rgyal，1306-1386）只不过他和布顿大师没有关系，又叫Bodong Choklay Namgyel 是“博东巴”，呵呵我怎么也没想到居然是这意思
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